Mobile Suit Gundam: Are Funnels Overpowered, or Did They Just Get Countered?

Japanese fan reactions (excerpted from 212)

• I mean, a Jegan with just a few extra parts can close the distance into melee against them. (Granted, pulling that off still takes serious skill.)

  ちょっと装備増やしただけのジェガンに接近戦まで入られる程度の性能だしね。 (なお入る側も技量はだいぶ必要)

  — @629TARUHI17 likes

• By Unicorn it's already exposed that the answer is just "ignore them, rush in, and force a melee" (the Kshatriya vs Jegan opening). Once that becomes standard tactics, of course they die out.

  ユニコーンの時点で「無視して突っ込んで格闘戦に持ち込めば良い」ってバレてるもんな(冒頭のクシャトリアvsジェガン) これが一般的な戦法になったらそら廃れる

  — @くろいぬ-z6d0 likes

• Strong if you can master them, but ordinary soldiers can't use them at all, so the pilot pool is tiny. And the AI-assisted versions that regular soldiers CAN use just get handled by aces — so they end up stuck in this awkward middle.

  使いこなせたら強いが、まず一般兵には使えず乗り手が限られる 一般兵でも使えるサポートAI制御だとエース相手には対処されてしまうと中途半端な立ち位置

  — @瀬倉雅44 likes

• Apparently even the Elmeth kept blowing itself up and was treated as junk until an SSR pilot like Lalah finally showed up.

  実際エルメスもララァっていうSSRパイロット出てくるまでは自爆しまくって産廃扱いされてたらしいし

  — @user-kamesengogo12 likes

• Building a weapon that maybe one in a few million people can actually use — once you factor in training the pilot, training the mechanics, plus maintenance and supply — Funnels are just way too expensive.

  何百万人に一人まともに使える人がどうか？っていう代物を作るにはパイロット、整備士養成も整備補給まで含めるとコスト高すぎるんよファンネルって兵器・・・

  — @ngat63260 likes

• Probably because they're basically a weapon for one-off custom machines and don't lend themselves to mass production.

  量産に向かない基本ワンオフ機体用の武装だからかなぁ

  — @コモンさん1 likes

• You have to start by rolling the gacha for a pilot who can even use them, and the count and precision varies from Newtype to Newtype — plus there's the risk of a Lalah situation where she goes "my head hurts, I'm heading back" mid-battle. As a weapon system that's just too unstable.

  扱えるパイロットを探すガチャから始めないといけないしそれもNTによって扱える数や精度に差があったり初代のララァみたいに戦闘終わってないのに頭が痛いから帰りますってなる可能性があるのは兵器として不安定すぎるかな

  — @nin212-sn0 likes

• I guess as time went on, you didn't need to be Amuro Ray to deal with them anymore.

  時代が進むにつれてアムロじゃなくても対応できるようになっていったってことなんだろうな

  — @MamiamiTjadoru40 likes

• The Stark Jegan in Unicorn Ep1 really gave me that feeling — using a shotgun to knock them down with area fire and then forcing the fight into close range.

  ユニコーンEP1のスタークジェガンとかそれを感じた 散弾使って面の攻撃で落として接近戦に持ち込むという

  — @Glamorous_Silver11 likes

• Even the Kshatriya's Funnels can't one-shot a Jegan anymore — anti-beam performance has improved too.

  クシャトリアのファンネルですらジェガンを一撃で落とせてないからね 耐ビーム性能も向上してる

  — @かも矢4 likes

• By Char's Counterattack they were already treated as just a support weapon. It's only that perm-head and slicked-back hair were insane enough to be brawling in their MS AND dogfighting each other with Funnels at the same time — the tech was already on its way out.

  逆シャアの時点で補助武装的な扱いだったもんな 自分らもＭＳでバチバチにやり合いながら互いのファンネルでドッグファイトやってる天パとオールバックがおかしいだけで、もう廃れかけてたんだ

  — @瑠璃之助-Rurinosuke22 likes

• That's only because the opponent is a super-ace. Against rank-and-file troops they're still a colossal threat — a single Funnel-equipped MS or MA can wipe out a whole regiment.

  それは相手が超エースだからで やはり一般兵相手なら超絶脅威 ファンネル搭載MSやMA一機で一個連隊を壊滅出来る戦力ではある

  — @とど-u3b3 likes

• A loadout that lets one machine embody "War is a numbers game, brother!" all by itself is not weak.

  単騎で『戦いは数だよ兄貴！』を体現できる兵装だから弱くはない

  — @中川幸洋-j7x0 likes

• In the shows, about the only ones who could fully maneuver their machine AND run Funnels at the same time were Amuro, Char, and maybe Haman. Even Marida doesn't move her machine much while her Funnels are combat-maneuvering, and conversely her Funnels barely move during close-to-mid-range fights.

  ファンネル動かしながら機体も十分に動かせるのが劇中でアムロとシャア、あとハマーンくらいしか居なかったしね。 マリーダさんでもファンネルを戦闘機動するときは機体をそこまで動かしてないし、逆に近中距離戦だとファンネルが動いてるのそこまでないしね。

  — @マガリ0 likes

• Only a handful can control multiple Funnels to lay down a barrage, and an even tinier fraction can fully pilot the machine at the same time. Once people realize that MS-vs-MS you can just raise a beam saber and charge in, the advantage absolutely tanks.

  複数操作して弾幕張れるのが一握りで、それと平行して機体を十全に動かせるのがさらにごく一部 MS同士ならビームサーベル構えて突っ込めばどうにかなりそうと気付かれたら優位性はだだ下がりだよな

  — @anka69320 likes

• You have to actually aim for the thin armor at the joints or you won't even land an effective hit.

  ちゃんと装甲の薄い関節狙わんと有効打にならねえんだ

  — @マイクシエラ-x8l0 likes

• Like the video says: few people can use them, and from Char's Counterattack onward beam defense improved so much that the energy a Funnel can store isn't enough to take a unit down (the Nu Gundam's Fin Funnels can manage it, sure). That's the reason.

  動画でも言ってる使える人間が少ないのと、逆シャア以降にもなるとビームに対する防御力が上がったからファンネルに充填出来るだけのエネルギーじゃ落としきれないのが（流石にνのフィンファンネルにもなると落とせるけど）理由

  — @ks-kn8fe0 likes

• A Funnel's tiny thrusters can't keep up with a fast-moving target, so they get left behind. Against something like a Bigro they can't even get into firing position, which makes them useless. On firepower too, a Funnel's small E-CAP is a peashooter, and beam coating just deflects it…

  ファンネルの小さい推進器じゃ高速で動く物体に追いつけなくて置き去りになる。ビグロみたいなの相手だと射撃位置に付くこともできないで無意味に。 火力面でも、ファンネルの小さいE-CAPじゃ豆鉄砲で、ビームコートではじかれる事が・・・。

  — @RGM-79B4 likes

• As time went on mobile suits just got faster and Funnels couldn't keep up → Funnel Missiles → after that the psycommu itself got specialized for controlling a high-mobility machine, and all-range attacks died out. In F91 the tech as an autonomous guided weapon, decoupled from psycommu control, got carried over into the Bugs. The Rafflesia's Tentacle Rods evolved that same Bug tech into semi-autonomous operation plus enhanced-human brainwave control, so it can move an absurd number of them at once. Seabook taking those on and downing them in a single MS is honestly nuts…

  時代が進んだら普通にモビルスーツの速度が上がってファンネルじゃ追いつかなくなった→ファンネルミサイル→その後サイコミュそのものが高速で機動する機体のコントロールに特化してオールレンジ攻撃が廃れていった F91でサイコミュ操作と切り離した自律誘導兵器としての技術がバグに受け継がれた感じかな ラフレシアのテンタクラーロッドはバグと同じ技術で半自律稼働&強化人間の脳波コントロールでものすごい数を同時に動かせる方向で進化してる あれをMS1機で捌いて落とすシーブックが大概おかしい…

  — @starshipexplorers18 likes

• "They couldn't keep up" is a little off. It's not a tech problem — there's no rule that says a mass difference means they can't catch up. If MS get faster through tech progress, Funnels naturally get faster too. A lot of people get this wrong. The real problem is the person operating them.

  追いつかなくなったは少し違うんよ。 技術の問題ではない。単純に質量の差があるから追い付かないってのは無いんだよ。MSが技術進歩で速度上がればファンネルも当然速くなる。これ勘違いしてる人が多い。 問題なのは扱う人の方。

  — @柏崎せもぽぬめ-v6k1 likes

• Up to a point Funnels can punch through armor and they fly at least as fast, but once machine performance crosses a certain threshold the mass advantage closes the gap — they can't penetrate the defense, their range gets unreliable, and they lose on speed too. At that point it's faster to just chase the target down with your own machine and shoot.

  ある程度まではファンネルで装甲抜けるし、同等以上の速さで飛んでくけども、機体性能が一定の水準超えちゃうと質量のアドバンテージ埋まって防御抜けないばかりか、航続距離も頼りなくて速度も勝てなくなる。これなら本体で追いかけ回して撃った方が早い。

  — @トロネギ-y3d0 likes

• So they never evolved in the big-firepower direction, like a long-range Fin Funnel.

  ロングレンジフィンファンネルみたいな大火力方向には進化しなかったんだな

  — @ms-bs4ur2 likes

• By UC the ECOAS guys had countermeasures down to some degree, and once MS armor evolved they couldn't land effective hits — so them fading out is kind of unavoidable. Funnel Missiles are nuts though.

  UCの時点でエコーズにある程度対策されてたし、MSの装甲進化すると有効打にならないしで廃れたのも仕方ないよね ファンネルミサイルはやべーけど

  — @getbacktowhereuonebelonged0 likes

• My pick is the theory that they couldn't keep up with the MS downsizing that started with F91, so they died out.

  F91からのMSの小型化についていけなくて廃れた説を推します

  — @いしうす-q5r0 likes

• Director Tomino had already written them off back in Char's Counterattack, right?

  富野御大は逆シャアで見限ってたよね

  — @ぱさらんみけらん-prmrn3 likes

• Right, so for F91 they commissioned the mechanical designs on the premise that Funnels and the like wouldn't appear in the film at all.

  だからF91の時は、ファンネルとか劇中で出さない事を前提に機体をデザイン発注してました。

  — @騎槍-d9j1 likes

• I think the real reason was that it made the drama monotonous. The V2 Assault's Mega Beam Shield is presumably using psycommu to project its barrier, and the Gengaozo fires a psycommu-controlled five-barrel Vesber — so it's not like the tech went fully extinct.

  作劇が単調になるからって理由だったと思うけどね Ｖ2アサルトのメガビームシールドはバリア展開にサイコミュ使っているだろうし ゲンガオゾはサイコミュ操作の5連装ヴェスバーを撃っているので絶滅した訳ではない

  — @kito23214 likes

• Apparently from a story standpoint they stopped using them out of regret: "We introduced something like Minovsky particles specifically to make robots sword-fight up close, and then Funnels turned it right back into long-range beam exchanges."

  作劇的には「せっかくロボットチャンバラをやらせるためにミノフスキー粒子なんてモノを導入したのに、ファンネルのおかげで結局遠距離でビームの撃ち合いになった」って反省から使われなくなったそうな

  — @Akira_Alt00 likes

• Didn't the director himself say something like "I came up with all-range attacks and then realized — wait, this makes the MS pointless" and got stuck on how to handle it? Because he'd built the whole setting where Minovsky-particle radio jamming makes visual-range MS combat effective, and Funnels made that unnecessary all over again.

  御大が確か「オールレンジ攻撃考えたけどこれMS要らねーな」ってなって扱いに困ったとか言ってなかったっけ。 ミノフスキー粒子による電波障害っていう形でMSを使った有視界戦闘が効果的って設定作ったのにまた要らなくなっちゃうから。

  — @隆橋隆0 likes

• With enough tech progress you could probably build Funnels even an Oldtype could use, or AI-controlled drone-like Funnels — but Tomino disliked that because it kills the romance of combat. In real-world war it's become drone-centric, and even as you counter them the drones' performance and tactics keep improving, so they're not going to fade out.

  技術革新でオールドタイプでも扱えるファンネルが作られたり、AI自動制御のドローンみたいなファンネルも作れそうだけど、戦いにロマンがなくなるから富野が嫌ったんだろうね。 現実の戦争ではドローンありきの戦闘になって、対策すれどドローンの性能・戦術も上がってくから廃れることはなさそう。

  — @ワイ夜を知らない0 likes

• Strapping on a support AI, like the Cherudim Saviour or the machines in Witch from Mercury, seems more realistic.

  サバーニャとか水星の機体みたいにサポートAI積んだ方が現実的そう

  — @futoshi-ninomiya4 likes

• "Just mount them on a warship and put the Newtype up on the bridge" — I've thought that the whole time.

  「戦艦に乗せてニュータイプは艦橋におけばいいのに」はずっと思ってる

  — @コーチ-p5g13 likes

• If you're going to put Funnels on a two-seater MS, why not just make every gun turret on the warship a Funnel instead?

  複座式でMSにファンネル搭載するなら、戦艦の砲台を全部ファンネルにしたらいいんじゃねえかなあ

  — @とど-u3b0 likes

• For base defense I think they'd actually be pretty strong. Like, build a psycommu control room at the heart of a defensive stronghold and pilot beam-armed fighter-craft from there — that sounds powerful.

  拠点防衛用ならかなり強いと思うんだけどな。それこそ防衛拠点の中枢にサイコミュ制御室みたいなん作ってそこからビーム兵器積んだ戦闘機みたいなの操作したら強そうではあるんだが。

  — @まるまる-g6r5v1 likes

• By the Kshatriya you already need multiple hits to down a Jegan. They can't fit a generator for size reasons, so once they run out of energy you have to recall them to the main body, and with no recharge function they're basically disposable at that point — honestly bad cost-efficiency. And then Frontal's Sinanju goes on a rampage with just a basic rifle and saber plus high mobility, so you end up thinking: if you've got a strong Newtype, you don't even need Funnels.

  クシャトリアの時点で何発も当てなきゃジェガン落とせてないからなぁ、サイズの都合上ジェネレータ積めないからエネルギー切れたら本体に戻さないといけないし充電機能ない場合はその時点で使い捨て、ぶっちゃけコスパ悪いよね その後フロンタルのシナンジュがライフルとサーベルって言う基本的な武装と高機動だけで無双してるから強いNTならファンネル無くてもいいじゃんってなる

  — @九郎-z5n3 likes

• Part of it is the ability requirement, but I think the Unicorn showed off so much of the psycommu's potential that the whole thing got sealed away.

  能力によるものっていうのもあるけどユニコーンがサイコミュの可能性を示しすぎたせいで封印されたんだろうね

  — @user-freidomaru-game0 likes

• Conclusion: yeah, the perm-head guy is just broken.

  結論:やっぱり天パがおかしい

  — @nomusan260 likes

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